Introduction:
I’ve been wanting to review Ubuntu Christian Edition (CE) 3.3 with intentions of giving it a good review. After all, it is Ubuntu, with a little Praise Jesus on the side. I enjoy using Ubuntu, and if someone can put some Jesus in an operating system and I like it, surely it’s an operating system that is worth using.
The Good:
1. The Bible Verse Toolbar which is integrated into the Firefox menu bar is a fantastic idea. Every Christian should have a toolbar that automatically shows random Bible verses.
Honestly, I kept clicking the toolbar and getting tidbits of the Bible, which was about as good as opening a Chinese fortune cookie, without the carbs.
2. The Daily Bible Verse on the desktop using gDesklets is very slick. It downloads an RSS feed, updated once a day with a new Bible verse. Smart, very smart. I enjoyed the simplicity of this method, yet also the elegance required to not want to update it 30 times a day.
3. There is a Games icon installed by default in Firefox – this is cool. I spent about 30 minutes playing games when I should have been writing this article. Ah well, I love Pacman.
The Bad:
I can hear a collective “WHHHAT? I thought you said objective!”. I found three additions to Ubuntu that I consider good ideas. Everything else is either exactly the same as original Ubuntu, or can be installed with a few clicks. Mind you, the three good things I list can be configured easily, but those ideas are great for a Christian-oriented distribution, and in the case of video games embedded in Firefox, is a good idea any day.
1. The statements about UCE on their website actually give some fairly blatant lies right out of the pearly gates. For example,
“Firefox proxy settings are locked down to keep users from bypassing the filtering.”
This is simply not true. This is an outright lie. Bypassing Dansguardian filtering is pretty simple, it’s just like turning off any other proxy configuration:
In Firefox, simply goto Edit > Preferences > Network > Settings > Manual Configuration, the enter an asterisk (*) for the “No Proxy for:” and
within ten seconds, Dansguardian is completely disabled as far as Firefox is concerned.
So much for being Firefox being locked down.
2. The Bible Fox theme is garish and uses religious symbols which makes me think it’s a joke. A crucifix replaces the default stop button. That seems wrong to me in a few different ways. I can’t imagine what someone would be thinking when they created the theme, to be honest.
3. The “WhatWouldJesusDownload.com” search bar replaces the Google Search by default. The WWJD Toolbar is actually created by the same person who created Ubuntu Christian Edition, strangely enough.
Searches made within this toolbar are redirected to the WWJDownload website, which has sponsored results, which are much more difficult to identify as such as compared to similar results from Google.com.
When clicked on, these advertisements put money right into the pocket of the developer of Ubuntu CE. Hmmmm… ok.
Also, the same website contains a as many ad units as possible, the blog even violates Google’s Adsense policy, with about 20 different ad units on one page. It’s pretty obvious the creator of Ubuntu CE is trying to make money off Christians who use the operating system without being completely upfront about it.
4. Politically Oriented RSS Feed Favorites… RSS feeds built into the WWJD Toolbar. It is strange to me is that this website also seems to have a political slant to it, FoxNews RSS feed right at the top. I wonder if the webmaster is a Republican?
GodTube.com is another RSS favorite by default, and strangely has no videos about Democrats, other than a video entitled “Christians Cannot Be Democrats” – interesting.
5. Nowhere does the WWJDownload toolbar let you know that it is sending usage statistics, as reverting search settings to default. Hopefully it’s not sending URL data back to these folks – I’ve been surfing porn all day! That’s embarrassing.
6. There is a couple more things that seem out of place – GnuCash Financial Management Software installed by default. I guess it all boils down to the developer just being a wealthy christian who simply needs to keep tabs on how much money he’s making from Adsense.
7. Also bundled is Automatix, which has been shown to cause problems when upgrading to newer versions of Ubuntu, and is to be avoided if possible. This kinda shows that Ubuntu Christian Edition is showing some age, after all, Fiesty Fawn is about to be all but gone in less than two weeks. Automatix also shows a interesting disclaimer when opened, which is debatable if it is actually needed or even true:
8. Lastly, why is the the Bible Toolbar disabled? It allows searching for a Bible verse easily and quickly in Firefox. This thing is phenomenal, but not turned on by default, for unknown reasons.
Summary
I really hate to say this about a distribution that includes the likes of Pacman, Asteroids and Frogger embedded right in the browser, but…
I do not recommend Ubuntu Christian Edition, believer or not.
If you want a tacky Firefox theme, and someone “upstairs” making a quick buck while possibly watching what you search for and browse on the internet, by all means, go and download it. Otherwise, you’re simply wasting your time – this is not a distribution for Christians, it’s a distribution written specifically for the developer with religious, political, and monetary motivations for creating it in the first place.
38 replies on “An Agnostic Objectively Reviews Ubuntu Christian Edition 3.3”
Nice review of a firefox theme.
I Believe!!
Thanks for the comment Tank, I don’t quite get it though… did you read the entire article?
What a strange distribution… I don’t understand why anyone would download it. It looks like it goes against the ideals of open-source AND Christianity, ironically enough. The creator is obviously trying to make a quick adsense buck. Isn’t money one of the evil temptations?
I was somewhat surprised about this. Being a neo-hippy zen budhist girl at heart, i have no huge interest in UCE, but i thought it was a interesting idea (just putting christian style software in ubuntu not dissimilar to edbuntu). Which makes it seem a shame as to how bad this sounds.
Also is there really a what would jesus download toolbar?
Nice review of both the good and bad sides of Ubuntu Christian Edition. And for anybody who has a sense of humor, do a Google search for “Ubuntu Satanic Edition.” It’s really not much more than a theme with custom wallpaper and splash screens, but it made me laugh.
Boy.. i wish i had this much amount of time in my hands to waste it on a rebranded distro with censorship filters and a partisan bias. Can’t wait to know what the Muslim Edition has to offer us, sinful mortals π
On the other hand, thanks for letting us know about Fox News as the primary RSS newswire. It’s really hilarious π
As i wrote on a separate thread, at the very core of these religious fanaticism lies the very opposite of FOSS. No matter how much one would try to contort the definition, Religions are closed systems of beliefs based mainly on everalsting and definitive divine or divinely inspired revelations contained in scriptures revered as sacred.
Even if i had any faith in this kind of stuff, i would take those verse of the day and random verse applets as SPAM.
Sincere congratulations to the Wikipedia team for the removal. Propaganda does not build knowledge.
Btw, i find the classical Jesux vapourware at least funny:
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Node/4081/
Nice review. I installed UbuntuCE on my desktop some time ago… it lasted no more than 3 days. Everything you said on the BAD SIDE is true. Dansguardian ruined my Internet before I desabled it. Firefox theme is pathetic…
You said it all: money rules!
Sad, very sad!
Cheers
Thanks for that. I am a Christian and am usually used to being insulted by most other tech types, like the person ‘numa’ who posted above, stating that I have a closed mind. And classically displaying why his mind is far more shut than mine!!
But I found your review really quite good, clear, unbiggoted and honest. Never messed around with it myself, don’t really see a need. But I like what you said. Would be good to see someone really do a good job at it instead with less fluff. Better Bible stuff features, Christian community links to websites that are genuinely profitable for the end user.Solid desktop lockdown features. More of a focus on function than on religious iconography. Maybe preconfigured BasKet files with Bible study courses already entered. And importantly and understanding that the computer is a general use tool for everyday life, not just a place for someone to ‘meet God’.
Religion isn’t inherently against FOSS, actually. I happen to be very religious, and very much in favor of FOSS. There are similarties between my Christian religion and FOSS, in fact: we believe in continuing, modern-day revelation, as opposed to a closed canon. And we have a lay clergy made up of unpaid volunteers. Sound familiar? ^.^
Good review! I wasn’t interested in actually using the distro, but I’d heard about it and wanted to see what you had to say about it. It really does sound like more “Christian merchandising,” which I’m given to understand is prevalent these days. If you’re outside the mainstream, evangelical Christian world, as I am, it’s easy to underestimate just how much money people are making from selling Christian “branded” products.
I don’t see anything wrong with buying or using things that help remind you of Christ (Bible verse toolbar!), but some of it can be pretty cheap and tacky, like this distro. And the fact that its creator is not up-front about the fact that he’s making money off of it is pretty sleazy. Kudos for pointing this out!
For the christian person supercarrot: how can you properly understand the downsides of blending technology with religion or politics if you cannot cite my simple 4 letter name accurately? If there was any word play intended, i must have missed it… cultural gaps, perhaps.
And stop playing the usual victimization backmail. Nobody is hunting down religious people. I guess you love the idea of martyrdom and reversed witch hunting π It’s not about it, mate. It’s about keeping a collective effort apart from religious fanaticism. What i have stated about CE is valid for its counter-product, ME and any other of the same kind.
Use FOSS the way you want, develop whatever scriptures software you please. Actual development of any app has certainly a place in Wikipedia. Opportunism is to be treated elsewhere.
A curiosity.. do you feel less christian by using a non-denominational distro? I be you don’t.
To Jared Spurbeck: Your comment is quite insightful, i mean it. I’d love to develop the topic a lot further, but after my previous “tempered” comment i am eligible for a ban π
Seriously, if there is a forum where open mined people can discuss the implications of religion, ideology, ethics… in terms of FOSS endeavor, name it and i’ll pop up there.
As you know, embracing FOSS has a lot more to it than just its outstanding technical merits.
Cheers.
I wouldn’t call Ubuntu CE “religious fanaticism” so much as “religious commercialism,” really. Although I imagine that the fanatics are its target audience — those who believe that using the “Christian Edition” of something does make them more Christian, and who aren’t likely to look deeply enough to see how they’re being taken advantage of.
Nuno, perhaps Mr. Carrot was thinking of that song that was an Internet craze for awhile. ^.^ I’m not aware of such a forum at this time, but if you like you can go to the about page of my website to get my email address. I’d be happy to continue the discussion by email.
I know that this is a review Ubuntu CE not a place for a discussion on the place of religion in a post modernist society etc…
But just wanted to answer some things.
Nuno, I am not making this up, been down to many sites, and heard you repeating the same party line. I’m not out there to marginalize anyone. But boy come on, “As i wrote on a separate thread, at the very core of these religious fanaticism lies the very opposite of FOSS”. What? How do you decide whether or not I am a fanatic? Is is whether I agree with you at some level or not? Productivity lies at the heart of FOSS. That coupled with the willingness to share. Your comments ARE contraversial and have been answered appropriatly. Its not about feeling like a martyr, cause I wouldn’t of said anything if the word fanatic hadn’t been bandied around. Did I respond to the bloke talking about Ubuntu Satanic Edition? Precisly what I like about this review is that he has kept it to the facts, I don’t know what the reviewer personal beliefs are other than the fact that he is an agnostic. And if he hadn’t said that upfront, I would be none the wiser. That was good.
To answer Jared Spurbeck what song? What are you talking about?
I appreciate the comments you guys have made on this article.
When writing this, I hoped people who read it to see through the overall negative review, and see this distribution for what it really is.
I’m glad at least a few did. π
Productivity is not the most distinctive trait of FOSS. I would say that it is more a benefit than a cause. Openness, sharing, cooperation and transparency are, in my opinion, the chief elements of any FOSS project. This is why i consider any dogma based belief to be fundamentally opposite to FOSS.
Regarding Ubuntu SE, i take it as it is: a childish joke created i response to CE (very much what the Muslim guys did when setting up their Edition, which is meant to be a sort of “we are here” answer to CE).
I do take for granted that most believers of any credo pick their distro or framework according to factors other than faith.
Finally, in Wayne’s review, the partisan orientation of CE has shocked me a lot more than the Bible reminders, as if all christians are into the same political stream.
Openness, sharing, cooperation and transparency were elements of early Christianity. Alas, they have fallen after 2000 or so years.
Errr, Dogma is simply another word for belief, or a group of beliefs. One could say then, from your statement that FOSS is internally illogical, as it’s also a dogma based belief. The Dogma of FOSS? “Create, Share and Improve” comes to mind.
Finally, just leave the reasonable Christians alone. It’s refreshing to see that belief doesn’t blind, for a change. Many so-called Christians would attack because Wayne “bashed” UCE. Well, maybe he did, but it deserved it. π
Dogma’s a word that is interesting to define! Jeff, you used it to mean “a set of beliefs,” whereas Nuno uses it to mean “a set of beliefs that people won’t let anyone question.” I think the former definition is closer to the word’s original meaning, but the latter is more how it’s seen nowadays.
It is true that historically, especially during the dark ages, “mainstream” Christianity has been hostile to the idea of thinking for yourself. This is not an attitude found in the Bible, however: James 1:5 specifically enjoins believers to ask questions of God. And there are many Christians who have thought deeply upon their beliefs, such as the late C.S. Lewis.
You wouldn’t know it from some people (like the person who made this distro), but Christianity has a rich intellectual heritage. Its best ideals, as espoused by Jesus Christ himself, are very compatible with FOSS, as Jeff pointed out. Or perhaps it’s the other way around — I find that FOSS compliments my Christian beliefs nicely, beliefs about honesty, integrity, and treating other human beings as equals.
Wayne: Yep, thanks again ^.^
Supercarrot: This song!
OK, I was really trying to avoid spoiling this thread with a philosophical debate, but I must say James and Jeff have spoken very clearly whats on my mind. And about that song link Jeff – lol. There stands till this very day an extremely rich intellectual heritage, but it comes at a price that a consumer generation of Christians are not really prepared to pay. Hence a OS distribution aimed squarely at that religious consumerism. I have thought and thought about it. How could I do Ubuntu CE better? The answer came down not to the themes or the OS itself, that is like asking, how can I christianify a hammer or a screwdriver? The answer was always to be found in the content. Its all about content. If you want to do something ‘Christian’ that will help build a believers faith, concentrate on content rather than look.
βCreate, Share and Improveβ is not a dogma, i think. It’s rather a method. This would prompt us to yet another wide topic: epistemology:)
Nuno: Could be both, probably.
As far as doing UCE better, I don’t know if there can be a “Christian” edition of Ubuntu, outside of the “Consumer Christianity” that we all seem to not like.
Supercarrot finally put a lable of sorts to the kind of “Christians” that annoy the most: “Consumer Christians”
I dunno, I had more to say, but I cannot figure out the words to express it.
Again, excellent unbiased review, and some execellent (if slightly off topic) comments here.
I’ve got no issue with slightly off-topic commentary, as long as I don’t need to moderate.
π
-Wayne
Well Wayne,
I would be lying if I said that I enjoyed the read. I have a few comments that I hope you will address.
1. The Firefox proxy settings should be locked. Did you install Ubuntu CE via cd, the convert_me script, or did you just use the LiveCD? If they were not locked then that is something that would be a nice bug report.
2. Your distaste for the BibleFox theme is based on your opinion. The BibleFox theme was added by user request.
3. The WhatWouldJesusDownload.com search bar is part of the WhatWouldJesusDownload.com Toolbar which also provides the games that you liked. Yes, the searches do display sponsored results. This helps to generate revenue to help support Ubuntu CE and all of my web projects. http://www.TheJBEnterprises.com
4. The Ubuntu CE website does not violate the Google TOS. We only display the allowed amount of adds per page. If we did have more ads than allowed they simply would not display.
5. The statistics gathered by the WhatWouldJesusDownload.com toolbar are no different than the cookies that are used by almost ever site on the web. The statistics are only used to give us an idea of what features on the toolbar are being used so we can enhance it to meet the needs of our users. It does not collect info on your searches. Your implication is misleading and unfounded. The user can easily disable the collection of these statistic in the toolbars preference settings.
6. Gnucash is included to help give Churches the tools they need for keeping up with their finances.
7. Automatix was included because at the time it was not so easy to get the needed codecs to play DVDs and listen to mp3s. Since Ubuntu CE is downloaded and used globally and these codecs are not illegal in all countries it was decided to include it. Also your comments about the Disclaimer used by Automatix has nothing to do with Ubuntu CE you should take that up with the Automatix team.
8. The reason that the BibleToolbar is disabled by default is because having all of the available toolbars enabled by default would take up too much space on the screen. After getting much feedback from users of Ubuntu CE we choose the current setup.
I would also like to point out that your “Objective” review is anything but. Your subtle attempts to bash Ubuntu CE are quite obvious. To pass this off as a legitimately objective review is misleading and irresponsible.
Also, your implications that my motivation is purely for commercial or monetary gain is offensive. Yes, I do use ads on my sites. These sites help to support my efforts. I have yet to make what anyone would call a fortune. I would love for the revenue generated by my sites and projects to be enough to support my family, but this has not happened yet. Painting this as some sort of money grubbing attempt to exploit Christians is absolutely untrue. Everyone has to make a living and I am simply trying to do it doing something that I enjoy doing and that people have responded to with great joy.
Now as for your question for the number of downloads. I do not feel obligate to let you know after reading such a one sided bashing of Ubuntu CE. However, I will tell you that since we began tracking the main download mirror from Oklahoma Christian University we have had around 40,000 downloads from that single mirror. We have no way of tracking the other mirrors and the torrents available from various sources. We are also not sure exactly how many copies of the cd have been sold on the various sites that sell distributions. You can even find Ubuntu CE on ebay from someone who sells copies there.
I do appreciate you letting me know about your “review”. It is better than the many who bash our efforts without ever actually contacting us. However, I wished you would take an honest look at the motives of your “review” and think about how you have been misleading in your attempt.
Sincerely, Jereme Hancock
Ubuntu CE Developer
1. I installed via CD, then ran the update manager to obtain the latest versions of Firefox and Dansguardian. When trying to lock Firefox settings, it simply did not work. A bug report may be difficult, as I am back to vanilla Ubuntu.
2. Do you personally use the BibleFox theme? Truthfully?
3. WhatWouldJesusDownload Toolbar was the punchline to several jokes at family dinner this Sunday.
4. It was on one of your blog pages, possibly an archive page? It had about 10 posts on it, and above each post was a doubled up, side by side square AdSense block for a total of 20 AdSense blocks. I can try and find again it if you’d like. Also if you’d like some help on increasing AdSense CTR I can share a few huge tips I’ve learned in the couple of months I’ve been running this website.
5. Based on how many users you have of the toolbar (along with user-agent which includes O/S) would give a rough idea of how many users you have.
6. GnuCash – OK, now I understand – Many churches would need this software. I take back my comments on this.
7. I’ll review UCE again when it’s updated and codecs are (hopefully) easier to install. You chose to include Automatix in the distribution, and if you didn’t like the disclaimer, you have access to the source code and could have removed it.
8. Makes sense to me.
Not objective? Irresponsible? Misleading? Bashing? Offensive? Many people (including Christians) thought it was a good review. And it doesn’t even count the As you know, writing in a sensational style makes more headlines than a poorly written one.
I’m not trying to minimize the “great joy” that you have created for others, in fact quite the opposite. This article something that you and other developers of Ubuntu CE can learn from, nothing more. I promise when you release a new version, I’ll be the first to seed the torrent for you, if you’ll have it.
My objective review went completely out the window when I saw how Firefox was configured by default. It clearly reminded me of the last time I setup a computer with an OEM version of Windows.
There are so many extras in this distribution that leave me wondering “What is the value added for the end user?” The answer is ultimately, “Not much.”
This article is far from one-sided. It is actually 45 percent positive, if you don’t count GNUCash (which you explained) and Automatix (which wont exist next version).
Jereme, I really appreciate you coming and visiting my website and contributing, I would like to interview you before (or after) your next release if you would have me.
Regards,
Wayne
Thanks for the follow-up. Maybe I am still just a little defensive since I have taken a lot of abuse by those who want to stop my efforts. I apologize if I misunderstood your intent. Thanks for the info on Firefox. I will definitely take a real close look at this for the next release.
Yes, I do use the BibleFox them.
When you ran the update-manager did you do a dist-upgrade to Gusty? I have never had this issue with Dansguardian and Firefox. There have been some users who have had trouble with the Dansguardian setup, but for the vast majority it works. I work hard to make it better with each release.
I can’t really go by the user statistics of the WhatWouldJesusDownload.com Toolbar since it is available for installation for IE and Firefox. In other words not all the users of the Toolbar come from Ubuntu CE.
As for the Digg post, I do feel very seriously about how my project was treated by Wikipedia.
I would like for you to review the next release. I would appreciate that it does not contain questions of my intent or motives. I would also be willing to do an interview before of after release. I have done a few interviews about Ubuntu CE and have enjoyed quite a bit. Just shoot me an email and we can discuss it.
Jereme
I encourage new distributions, including your own.
I’m honest when I say that BibleFox isn’t my cup of tea, and next time around I’ll certainly be less critical of it.
Onto Wikipedia – Do I think the deletion was warranted?
I skimmed through the talk page before it was deleted and saw the argument was that it fell more into the guidelines of WP:Notability (as I recall) instead of WP:Software.
Is that fair? Does it really belong in an encyclopedia as it’s own entry rather than a footnote? Ultimately, that decision is up to the Wikipedia administrators, and for now they’ve chosen that it does not deserve it’s own entry. Maybe a few releases from now it will. If everyone had editorial rights on Wikipedia, you could be your bottom dollar I’d be uploading my life story as a “notable person.”
User counting is never accurate, but perhaps you can create a script that runs upon installation that would notify you of a new install.
Everyone has their own ideas of how things should be done, and sometimes there is a breakthrough with an outstanding idea and others copy it and the whole community prospers.
Truthfully, the idea of using an RSS feed on the desktop is pretty fantastic, if I were to make a Ubuntu Fsckin.com Edition I’d definitely snag that one. π
-Wayne
As for the Wikipedia issue the main problem that I have is the fact that the debate was ongoing until it was abruptly by an admin. The admin even admitted that the decision was “against the public opinion”. Also is a real problem with consistency. I mean Ubuntu ME (Muslim Edition) still has its own page which is ironic since Ubuntu CE, in my opinion, helped to spur on its development. Also there are some non-religiously oriented distros based on Ubuntu that still have their own page that are have equally debatable notability.
As for the notability issue. This is a matter of perspective. I mean we all agree that Ubuntu has notability within the Linux world. However, I would dare say that the majority of the world has never heard of Ubuntu. For instance, Ubuntu CE may not be very notable in the larger Linux community, but within the growing Christian Linux community it has quite a bit of notability. Also, Ubuntu CE has affected the landscape of Linux whether people like it or not. I remember when Jesux was first announced. I really thought it was a great idea and it got a lot of attention. Then it turned out to be a hoax. Well, Ubuntu CE showed that a real Christian distro could actually be useful and have enough of a user base to grow and even thrive. It is currently #31 on the DistroWatch popularity list. I know this not the best source for true popularity, but when you add it to all of the other sources and reviews it surely deserves more respect than it is currently getting.
Jereme
Though i do find the very concept behind Ubuntu CE at least arguable, let’s suppose it is actually useful for christians.
Question: what branch of Christianity is it tailored for? From my atheist armchair, it looks pretty much sectarian within the wide religious audience it should target.
On the other hand, by carrying the banner “Christian” it appropriates that vast plethora of currents into a single interpretation of what to be a Christian means.
Why isn’t the repackage called Ubuntu Neocon Edition straight, if it actually reflects the views of a certain far-rigt way of being Christian *in the US* (the geolocation and cultural background is very important!).
What about Christians who do think that FoxNews is a manipulation engine?
Jared is a Mormon, my entire family is moderate Roman Catholic. Not quite sure if Ubuntu CE would ever suit their spiritual needs…
@Nuno
Well, it is completely impossible to be perfectly tailored for every denomination of Christianity.
I built the distro in an effort to meet the needs of the majority of Christians both Protestant and Catholic. I also listen closely to the users of Ubuntu CE. If they have a need and voice it through a suggestion then I try to meet that need whenever possible.
I am basically doing everything I can to meet the needs of those using Ubuntu CE. I have not agenda other than that.
Jereme Hancock
Ubuntu CE Developer
@Nuno
Fox News a manipulation engine?? Nooooo…
But then, since ABC/NBC/CBS elected Clinton I’ve felt *They* were manipulation engines. CNN’s not called Clinton News Network for nothing.
The fact is, EVERY media outlet is an M.E. (I’m too lazy to type that out again…) the difference lies in what direction they are attempting manipulation in.
The skill lies in knowing where the BS is, and not getting manipulated.
And as far as “What Branch”, Christianity, the basic “from the word of Jesus” kind, has no branches. Branches were created by man, which is why personally, I subscribe to none of them.
Being Christian means having accepted that you are not perfect, that God knows this, and sent Jesus here, etc.
I personally think that God has a sense of humor, he created us, and while I might burn in hell for calling them “Daddy, Boy Wonder and The Spook” or referring to the Sacraments as “The Juice and the Holy Cookies”, I doubt it, because these are things that are defined by men, not God.
Here’s a funny one, lest the Baptists and Catholics feel they are the only people I’ve offended: “Jehovah”, or the original Hebrew symbols that translate into “Jehovah”, mean “I am what I am, Do not try to name me.” Seems that our friends in the Watchtower are disobeying the Lord by cramming a name onto Him.
Alas, I can’t tick off the Mormons present, because the only thing I knew of that I’d call smelly (prohibition of blacks, calling them the “Sons of Cain”) was repealed in 1978.
My point here is that all of these distinctions were made by MEN. I believe that accepting Jesus will get you into Heaven, if only by the skin of your teeth.
I think UCE fits Christianity, as it should have been, well. You make it your own, with the words of Christ as your guide.
Hell, I got 20 gigs free here, I might just have to go get it myself now. π
Just mention any topic discussed on josephlied.com, such as the translation of the tablets. When I moved to Utah 4 years ago, things like the Southpark episode that details the beginnings of the LDS church spoke volumes about how easily good people are mislead.
flummoxed:
1Tim 6:10
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
The LOVE of money, not money itself π
Ouch! Yes, I imagine josephlied.com would set any good Mormon right off.
Personally, I think the best explaination for Smith’s translation of the Kinderhook Plates, that would still fit within the Church is that “Smith was filled with pride and attempted to do something not of God” or some such. (Yes, I think he tried…)
The Scrolls, well, they seem to be fighting that one fairly well.
So far as I know they aren’t claiming Joseph Smith was sinless, as was Christ, so admitting fault and moving on would have killed off the possibility of claiming some “Conspiracy”
Kinda like how Clinton shudda said “Hell yes I inhaled!! And I ate the roach when I was done, and drank the friggin’ bong water when we switched to smoking bowls.” π
Ok, Now I’ve ticked off most major branches of Christianity, and most Democrats too. :p
AS: Wayne, sorry for hijacking your thread, man
@Jeff
Some sparse notes.
For an outsider like me, all those slight nuances in between twin political parties are merely cosmetic (for a leftist european, at least:))
The problem with Fox News is that their manipulation techniques are just too gross. It takes a load of naivety to believe whatever they spit out, even the weather forecast hahahaha
Regarding religious beliefs, i start to be convinced that God is himself Atheist. He must be so disappointed at his faulty creation that He may find any form of worship and devotion offensive. Misbelief is the way to salvation and only those who have striven to behave ethically will be rescued from eternal damnation π
God’s message to mankind (Revelation 23 :)): “Stop fooling yourselves, mind your troubles, leave me alone.”
Do you guys really THINK that an almighty creator, omnipresent, omniscient and everlasting would ever require faith? What for when one is alpha and omega?
On the Mormon bashing… It amazes me why other Chirsties are so harsh at them. Was Mr. Smith a liar?… Hmmmm… What about all the prophets from the Jewish tradition? Couldn’t they be a bunch of charlatans as well?
From where i stand, it is all worth the same credibility. None.
I strongly endorse you to read a masterpiece written by a fellow citizen of mine who was awarded the Nobel Literature Prize back in 1998.
The Gospel According to Jesus Christ, by Jose Saramago.
http://www.amazon.com/Gospel-According-Jesus-Christ/dp/0156001411
It depicts the only religion i could ever adhere to. Humanism.
nano, no problem I enjoy the conversation. have you considered hedonism?(grin)
@Wayne
Don’t wanna make a fuss around my name, but it is really NUNO π It’s a very oldfashioned portuguese being used for over 1000 years.
Hedonism? Only once a day to keep the apple away hahahahaha.
@Nuno
Yes, Fox is bad. But You w/Fox=Me w/ABC et. al. π
Please understand, though, I’m not really left or right, myself. I think the leadership on both sides of the aisle is too extremist. If the regular people in each party were ever to put aside the labels of “Democrat” or “Republican” and figure out they really do agree on much more than what they fight about, the leaders on both sides would be out.
Or, just say “Libertarian” to tick off everyone. Over here, a gun-toting pro-choice person is better off being a Libertarian. I just wish we could get one as President.
Personally, I was bashing everyone above, more tongue in cheek bashing, or “Equal Opportunity Offender”, but I think the reason the Mormons get beat on is that they are so damn successful, both in worldly matters and as a faith. They really do run Utah (from what I’ve seen driving thru it), and most Mormon families I’ve met are, if not wealthy, at least not worried about paying the bills. And the LDS church is growing, so of course they’re “Stealing” converts (read: $$) from other faiths.
All prophets are human, and subject to human desires. They may indeed have been inspired by God, but I’m willing to lay odds that God’s message got mixed in with some personal desire for glory for themselves. Note Jesus !=Prophet.
But Robert A. Heinlein said it best in his books: All Religions are created equal. First they benefit the priests, then the kings, then the priests.
(I can’t remember the exact quote, but it was along those lines.)
This review keeps coming up in Google searches for my name. >.>;
I’d just like to add a little addendum: I’m not Mormon anymore. The LDS church is mean and abusive, especially to GLBT individuals. I’m glad that I’m not a part of it, and that my money’s not going to support it anymore.